EP 35

EP 35

Mistress Gemma Li navigates a labyrinth of topics, from her disdain for celery to the depths of BDSM psychology. Explore her journey from academia to domination, as she emphasizes communication and hands-on experience in the evolving realm of kink education.

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Guest Bio

Mistress Gemma Li is an international Dominatrix based in Denver, CO. She enjoys bondage in both the figurative and literal sense as a psychological tool in D/s.

Instagram: @mistressgemmali


[00:00:09] Wicked Wren Hello to all my guys, gals and non-binary pals. Welcome to the Shibari Study Podcast. I'm your host, Wicked Wren. Shibari Study is an online learning resource offering video tutorials for beginners through advanced practitioners. Whether you're brand new to the world of Shibari and needing to learn the basics, or a seasoned rigger or rope bottom seeking inspiration to push your practice to new places, there's something for you at shibaristudy.com. Today I have on Mistress Gemma Li. Misstress Gemma uses she/her pronouns. She's a (…) in Denver, Colorado and she bases her play in psychological domination. Hello, Mistress Gemma, how are you?

[00:00:51] Mistress Gemma Li I'm doing well. How are you?

[00:00:54] Wicked Wren I am also doing great. So, I heard that you hate celery.

[00:01:03] Mistress Gemma Li Yes. It's a complicated relationship. Absolutely. I want to like it. I appreciate it for what it is, but it just leaves a terrible taste in my mouth.

[00:01:16] Wicked Wren Do you, do you think it's a texture thing?

[00:01:19] Mistress Gemma Li Absolutely not. It is a taste thing. I don't know if there's this genetic thing like cilantro, you know, has some people, tastes soapy to them. Or broccoli could taste really terrible for me. Celery tastes like aluminum foil. No matter how much I try to like it. I know it's good for me.

[00:01:43] Wicked Wren That's what I hear.

[00:01:44] Mistress Gemma Li I know, yes. Yeah. Do you like celery?

[00:01:49] Wicked Wren I hate it. I think it's awful. No. My question, though, is you said you appreciate it for everything it is. What do you appreciate about it? Like, what do you like about the scathing review that just came out for celery? What do you like?

[00:02:02] Mistress Gemma Li I, I guess the goodness it could provide to me. Fiber, water. Although nutritionally I don't think it holds, look... Like, with calories, I don't think it holds much. But I read all the great things that it can do for you. And so I periodically go through times where I'm like, Okay, I'm going to give another chance. Maybe I've gotten older and my taste has changed. Yeah, every single time, I can't.

[00:02:32] Wicked Wren Yeah. We're really letting it work on her merits for what she can potentially give us. It makes sense. My last celery based question is have you tried it with peanut butter.

[00:02:45] Mistress Gemma Li Everyone always asks for that, or they're like, What about ranch?

[00:02:48] Wicked Wren Yeah.

[00:02:49] Mistress Gemma Li It does not matter. She is very potent and overpowering.

[00:02:54] Wicked Wren The peanut butter thing is gross to me because then it's like watery with the peanut butter in my mouth and I don't like it.

[00:03:02] Mistress Gemma Li And then add raisins to that. People that add raisins. That's a lot of texture. A lot of taste. Yeah.

[00:03:07] Wicked Wren Yeah. I think that the people that do the ants on a log, I think they maybe are looking for attention, you know, because it's kind of a spectacle here. They sit there with their little raisins and their peanut butter.

[00:03:18] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah, I guess that would be questionable as an adult, if you, like, served it on a party platter. It's like, what are we, five years old? Are you trying to make me like celery? Like my mom tried. My mom tried.

[00:03:30] Do you work for big celery or something? My best friend loves celery and ants on a log, and he's always doing it. And I'm like, What are you, what do we, what are we doing here? Anyway. I'll get off my celery rant now.

[00:03:45] Mistress Gemma Li Soap box. Aluminium. Soap box. You know, comfort food. If it makes them feel good, then why not?

[00:03:54] Wicked Wren I'm okay with it. I'm fine with that. So you went to UCLA and you studied psychology, correct?

[00:04:02] Mistress Gemma Li I did.


[00:04:03] Wicked Wren Did you like that? Was it a fun program to do?

[00:04:07] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah, I hope I liked it because I changed my major about... Three times before settling on it. I think... I did.

[00:04:16] Wicked Wren What was the first one?

[00:04:18] Mistress Gemma Li Well, so I got in for economics, business economics. And then once I got in, I thought maybe, you know, poly sci would be great. I was considering going into humanitarian work and working with NGOs, which I would like to, sometime in the future. And then I moved to anthropology because I find it fascinating. Just understanding... Humans, the development and where do our inclinations come from and how have we evolved and progressed and even in conjunction in relation to the rest of the world and how we operate with other things. But then, I think I always knew I had an interest in psychology, and I had... I should say had, I've worked on this a lot. I had this idea that if it wasn't hard and difficult, then it did not mean anything. So I was really challenging myself to go after ideas and things that were challenging to me, which is great, but not something that actually played to my natural skills. And psychology has always kind of been natural to me. My intuition and being able to work with people, engage with people. So I finally settled on it and I had such a good time.

[00:05:55] Wicked Wren Fascinating phrase. If it wasn't hard and difficult, it wasn't worth your time or it didn't mean something.

[00:06:03] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah, I guess I was a little bit of a (…) to myself.

[00:06:09] Wicked Wren Sounds like it. Do you think that... I relate to that a lot, where I think that if something's easy for me, it's easy for everybody, and I shouldn't do it. And I feel that I've missed out on a lot of things that I maybe should have been exploring and doing that I'm naturally good at. But I'm like, Oh no, I should keep going here.  And that's definitely caused me to progress and learn other things. Have you found a balance between those two things?

[00:06:40] Mistress Gemma Li I think finding something that you do well, but then challenging yours, you or in my case, myself to continually grow in that to get better at it is... Is the growth in it, and the challenge. And then also I think the next step is, Okay, if I'm good at this, what do I do with it?  How do I apply it? How do I make it accessible to others? How do I actually create something that is giving back? So what good is it if I'm going to keep it to myself? Of course, unless it is a passion or hobby that you find sacred and you know, you, you need that safe space for yourself, but... Yeah, I think the challenge is then how do I make it bigger?

[00:07:38] Wicked Wren Yeah. Have you always been a really intuitive person?

[00:07:45] Mistress Gemma Li I believe so. I don't know if I was aware of that early on. I think I grew up in circumstances where I was forced to be very observant in reading people. So... That developed it. And I, and I've read and I've seen things where psychologists have said, you know, being hyper vigilant and confusing intuition... Is possible. And so deciphering that, of like what is intuition versus just being highly sensitive to something. And so over the years, I think I've learned to just trust my intuition. And, which means also asking myself, What is it truly I want in this situation? Versus, Okay, what are other people projecting?

[00:08:41] Wicked Wren Do you think that that is the key to seeing if it's maybe like a trauma response, or if it is being intuitive? Is it asking yourself what you want in this situation is that like the core of that?

[00:08:55] Mistress Gemma Li I believe for... Yes. I think that is a big part of it. Obviously I think there's always consideration for others, right? For me, it's always, Okay, what do my decisions or actions do or what's the impact it may have on others? Because the impact on others will affect what I want, ultimately. You know, having a negative impact on someone else, is that truly something I want to carry? Is that something I want to put forth out there? No. And yeah, you hit it on the head. I think, being reactive to trauma's response versus being intuitive, and I think intuition also asks for being present in the moment. So there's that big differentiation. Are you being reactive because you're holding on to something in the past, and that's what your body just learned to do to survive, versus Okay, am I here in this moment, and I see it clearly for what the situation is. And so I'm going to make my decision based on that.

[00:10:01] Wicked Wren That makes total sense. I don't know if this is going to lead to a good conversation, but I want to pose the question. A lot of (…) say things like, I'm a psychological (…). I like mind (…). I feel like it's kind of been... Over said at this point. Everyone says it. And it's really just them being mean to somebody about something. My, I guess, my question is, what is that edge between simply just being mean to somebody and actually using psychology and the human psyche and things like that in the session? Does that make sense?

[00:10:53] Mistress Gemma Li Absolutely. And I know exactly what you're saying and the question you're asking.

[00:11:04] Wicked Wren Thank you.

[00:11:04] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah. That is, that is a big one to unpack, right?

[00:11:11] Wicked Wren Good luck. I'm so sorry.

[00:11:14] Mistress Gemma Li No, no. I think it's an important one, for sure. And... Mind (…), yeah, I think stereotypically people think that just means (…) with someone's mind without regard perhaps to their actual mental wellbeing. But... It really comes down to negotiation, because if someone tells me they don't want to be (…). They don't want to be (…). You could still (…) with their mind within the bounds of what they desire and what they fantasize about. Of course, as a dom there, there is this innate urge to want to push, to see, you know? Get you a little uncomfortable. Like, okay, if you're not really into heavy (…) and (…), I'll just be teasing. What's one step before that? Can I embarrass you a little, even potentially by being really sweet, you know, calling you out for being super cute or like, Oh, look at you blushing. You know, how do you flirt with that? And that's really the psychological aspect is, How can I use whatever they share with me against them? Without making them... Oh, yeah. They want to be out of control. That is the point. But without them feeling like they're not being seen. I think they just want to be seen and understood in this taboo and often darker side of sexuality.

[00:13:07] Wicked Wren I want to dig into two things. But first, we talk a lot about the negotiations from a physical aspect. Where don't you want to be hit? Where don't you want rope to be on your body? What actions do you not want to have happen to you? When you're negotiating for something verbal or something psychological in any way. (…), (…). How are you pulling some of that stuff out and saying like, directing, not conversation to be like, I don't want this to be pulled up. I don't want this to be pulled up, but I like this kind of thing. Or do you find that you have to kind of direct people into a, a path of like, what specifically do you like in, in this?

[00:13:54] Mistress Gemma Li I think clear communication up front is the best way. So I do ask specifically, you know, do you have any triggers verbally, not just physically. Because yes, you're right. Most people just give me the physical activities and then when I actually speak to them, I do dig in and pry deeper. Like, are there any triggers for you verbally? Is there any trauma for you? You know if I... and I'll give them examples. I think often providing examples like, if I spoke about your gender, if I spoke about the way you look your body, about your intelligence, your race. Although race is off the table for me.

[00:14:44] Wicked Wren As it should be in general. Alright, go on. Sorry.

[00:14:47] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah. And so asking those specifically, they kind of get an idea of like, Okay, I know what you mean. And most of those that are into heavy (…) are like, No, give it to me. Like, I have pretty tough skin. So give it to me. And others will share. They're like, Yeah, I've kind of have trauma from before being bullied or whatnot that this might get me in a bad headspace. So just being very direct about it.

[00:15:18] Wicked Wren Do you find that there's ever people that come in with situations and you can see something there and you're like, I don't want to touch that.

[00:15:28] Mistress Gemma Li Yes, all the time. All the time. Yeah. Just reading their facial expressions or the way that their body may pull back if I say something.

[00:15:45] Wicked Wren And... Are these observations in your negotiation intake process? Or are these negotiations during a scene?

[00:15:52] Mistress Gemma Li I think there's always negotiation throughout every single step. Absolutely, yes. Because even day to day. Someone might tell me in a screening they are open to this, or they don't know how they feel about this, and then I actually get with them. And that day, perhaps they had a stresser, maybe they didn't sleep well. They have an injury. So I always renegotiate limits. I'm like, Hey, let's go over this. But is there anything else you want to add today and might just be for today?

[00:16:28] Wicked Wren You said something cool earlier, that you said people just wanted to be seen in this space. And I think that goes for everyone in (…), no matter what side of the slash you're on or what you're doing. We all just want to be seen. I think that is the first thing that people miss, especially in rope, because rope is very pattern-based. There you learn a sequence, you want to do the sequence, and you want to do the (…) to each other to kind of get off on, on that thing. Talking about... Being seen in a space was that always intuitive to you? Or is that something you kind of had to, had to learn?

[00:17:18] Mistress Gemma Li I think... It's pretty intuitive to me to read someone, and what I've learned is you don't focus on what someone says. You focus on what they're doing while they're saying it. Because yes, submissives certainly want to make their dominant proud, right? They don't want to feel like they failed. They want to serve. And they could be saying yes, but their body is saying no. I, within learning in (…)... Of course, that was something I had to learn because it's just a different area that, when I started I was new to, but I think my innate ability to read someone definitely helped. Yeah.

[00:18:19] Wicked Wren That's so cool to say. Is reading what they're doing while they're saying it, you know? Because yes's mean a million different things. There can be a pressured yes, and you brought up a really good point that submissives want to impress dominance. And also in rope; bottoms want to impress tops. And there's if somebody is watching you'll do a lot more than you normally would do. And I think it really comes down to tops and egos and putting that ego aside and just leaving a little bit on the table for the next date. There will always be next time to do more and go further, you know?

[00:19:02] Mistress Gemma Li Well, there won't be a next time if you don't do it right. So if you want that next time, yeah.

[00:19:10] Wicked Wren I would love to talk about education a little bit. And the landscape with technology and online resources has really, really changed. When you were coming up, what was the education like with learning stuff?

[00:19:26] Mistress Gemma Li Well, when I was coming up as a pro or interested in becoming pro, it was smack in the middle of Covid. So that really only gave one resource which was online. Because playing personally is very limited in terms of the exposure you have. First to the types of subs, types of (…). Maybe not just subs, but I personally like subs. And then also the activities and the safety around that. So for me, taking online stuff for at least the psychological aspects or maybe learning more of the business was useful. The on hands, you can't really replace that unless you actually get active time and you clock in. And so I was able to do that by, you know, some online stuff like shibari. I was able to learn some stuff from videos, but other more edge play or that were highly physical in a way where like impact play or I don't know what I'm allowed to say on this, so maybe I will avoid the others.

[00:20:52] Wicked Wren Yes. Us your imagination everybody.

[00:20:57] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah. Exactly. Fantasize of whatever it is that you hope for. Those I did have to learn through other (…).

[00:21:07] Wicked Wren Yes, online resources are awesome, but they never replace in-person learning. You need teachers and other (…) and other professionals in general to teach you things.

[00:21:18] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah, and I've learned actually a lot from submissives.

[00:21:24] Wicked Wren Talk to me about that.

[00:21:27] Mistress Gemma Li I tell my submissives, You know, one service that you could do for me is help me continue to develop my skills and professional life in business. And so I have some subs that are very skilled at a particular (…)or activity that they generally enjoy. And they're more than happy to show me the ropes. So some sessions will involve them teaching me a new skill, which I find amazing.

[00:21:57] Wicked Wren Yeah. Well, it's also a testament to you because it says your ego is like, not even in play here, right? Or maybe that side of your ego.

[00:22:09] Mistress Gemma Li I, sometimes I don't understand how you can't be humble and on both sides, on all sides of it, because of the vulnerability. It's so raw. Like you are exposed whether you are in control or you're the one giving it up. Because you're showing a side of yourself that is really visceral. And so... I don't see a place for an ego, only hum- just having humility and being again, like I said before, present with it.

[00:22:50] Wicked Wren Yeah. It's really different because in the (…) sphere, whether you're a pro or you're a hobbyist or whatever, people like to paint the idea of who they are, and that generally involves some sort of smoke and mirrors around how long someone's been doing it and what their, what they struggle with and all these kinds of things. So hearing that is very cool because it's not something a ton of people talk about. I want to talk about the femme fatale with you, and you have that around your websites and things like that. What is a femme fatale to you? Like, how do you define that character.

[00:23:36] Mistress Gemma Li Mhm, yeah. I describe a femme fatale as a woman who is confident, who knows what she wants. Is willing to go the lengths to getting what she wants. But she does it with grace, elegance and class. Obviously intelligent. And so for me, that psychological piece is very much it. It's like... The femme fatale doesn't have to do too much to spin her web and have those trapped in it. You know, it doesn't have to be this grand gesture or anything, but just finding the right moments of knowing which strings to pull, at what time, when to give it space and just luring in what she wants. I joke that I'm a lazy (…), and that I'm not going to go over the top and expend all this energy to get you to do what I want. You're just going to want to do what I want.

[00:24:55] Wicked Wren Yeah. You're a master puppeteer.

[00:25:00] Mistress Gemma Li Hope to get there. Hope to get better. Or at least get more victims.

[00:25:06] Wicked Wren Yes, exactly. More little people in your web. Who are some of your favorite femme fatales from movies and things? Do you have any?

[00:25:17] Mistress Gemma Li I was very inspired by James Bond growing up and all those femme fatales. Halle Berry Jinx actually was one of my favorites, and I named my first iPod after her because it was black. I was like, Oh, it's sleek, (…).

[00:25:40] Wicked Wren That's amazing. I think that was a formative one for many people.

[00:25:49] Mistress Gemma Li Yes. Oh my gosh, she is, she is quite the babe. Absolutely, yes.

[00:25:57] Wicked Wren I think it's also cool because there's so many versions of the femme fatale and she kind of gets wrapped up in these old film Noirs and things as a very mono note character. Manipulative, things like that. And if you dig into it, there are so many different versions of the femme fatale.

[00:26:25] Mistress Gemma Li Just as humans are very dynamic and different. Yeah.

[00:26:29] Wicked Wren You're very people focused in general. Like even from your upbringing and your schooling. And you were a consultant, correct? For a while?

[00:26:41] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah. It's what I just always ended up in. Although I am very introverted.

[00:26:50] Wicked Wren Are you really?

[00:26:52] Mistress Gemma Li I am, yeah. I do really like my downtime. I like being at home, nesting, just recharging. However, if I do feel a connection to people personally, professionally, there is a bit of this time warp that occurs. And so in sessions, I can often time just like – the rest of the world fades away. Like nothing else exists except that moment. So I guess you could say it's a bit of a meditative practice as well.

[00:27:32] Wicked Wren That makes sense. What do you think makes a really good submissive or bottom in a scene?

[00:27:42] Mistress Gemma Li That is certainly subjective to an individual, but for me, I like my submissives to be proactive. I want them to also be... Detail-oriented in that they have also listened to me. If I am giving you my energy, I'm listening to you. I'm there with you. So I expect the same. There has to be this continuous exchange. I like to say, you know, any relationship can't be one-sided, right? You can't just keep take, take, taking, even though it may look like this submissive is just giving, giving, giving. It has to be regenerative. It's a circular thing. You are just recharging each other and going through that. Did you have a question?

[00:28:35] Wicked Wren I do. Have you been in scenes where the bottom's kind of turned off and you're not getting anything back from them?

[00:28:45] Mistress Gemma Li Yes.

[00:28:47] Wicked Wren What does that look like?

[00:28:50] Mistress Gemma Li Hmm. Definitely not as engaged. Of course, some feedback is always nice. Not necessarily a very... Thought out methodical feedback, but even feedback of, you know, your body moving or relaxing. Sounds, though I do ask. You know, when you're having a good time, are you emotive? Do you express it, or are you pretty stoic and silent? Does that mean you're present and having a good time? So I kind of try to understand that for people that I'm first meeting. How do they express their submission? And that gives me what I need to be able to read them.

[00:29:39] Wicked Wren That makes sense.

[00:29:41] Mistress Gemma Li And also safe words. There's a reason for that, and there's no shame in using it. Because in the end, I'm not going to have fun. I'm not going to be able to do the things I want to do if you're not letting go because you're not serving me at that point.

[00:30:01] Wicked Wren Have you been in a situation where you've had to... Tell a submissive, Hey, I need more. I need more from you. You're not... I can tell you're kind of checked out. I need input.

[00:30:16] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah, I, (…) have safewords as well. I don't necessarily use safewords, but... If I really feel compelled to, I... Maybe had to do this only once or twice, but also masking it in my dominance of trying to get some kind of feedback. Perhaps posing something dominantly as a question. You know, seeing how they respond. But I haven't had anyone who just completely did not communicate with me. Because I think I try to create really safe space and make it very clear. This is what I expect. And also this is the only way I will do it if I sense that you can't communicate with me.

[00:31:10] Wicked Wren There's a lot of talk about ways to make consent check ins (…) and a part of the scene. Can you give us some tactile, actual ways to make little feelers or little, little nuggets to be like, Hey, where are we out right now? Little things like that, because... Obviously in a pro session, it's a very different thing than a maybe like a rope session or just a general play session. There's not a time limit. There's, you know, there's, there's money. Money's not going back and forth. And I think that people struggle with that because they don't want to ruin the moment or be uncool.

[00:31:55] Mistress Gemma Li Certainly when I know I'm pushing an edge or potentially playing with the limit, that fine line, I'll say something like Oh, you've been so good. And I want you to take more from me. You won't let me down. Are you willing to do that? Or even posing, Hey, I'm about to do this to you. And seeing their reaction.

[00:32:33] Wicked Wren Okay. It's great.

[00:32:35] Mistress Gemma Li Whether they're like, Yes, please Mistress, or, Yes, I'll do that for you, Mistress. Or if they just go silent and kind of freeze for a second, even a split second, and they don't think I'm reading that, then I know. And just, you know, this will sound manipulative, but coaxing them. You know, even asking like, Oh, are you afraid? Why are you so scared? What are you worried about?

[00:33:11] Wicked Wren And I think that, I know what you mean. And I think everybody listening to this podcast knows that you mean. But pushing edges is what makes (…) fun. But there's definitely a difference between pushing an edge of like, We're going to do something insane and like something that is a little tiptoe into something. You know, there's a debauchery in pushing someone into a jump and pushing someone into like a little tiptoe forward. Very, very different things. So...

[00:33:50] Mistress Gemma Li Or even breadcrumbing it throughout the time we have together. Maybe I'll throw it out in the beginning. Just tease them with something. Get them a little uncomfortable by it. But by the time we're towards the end I'll decide, Hey, this is actually going to happen.

[00:34:09] Wicked Wren That's really fun. It also adds anticipation. It adds fun, it adds structure to the scene and stuff like that. Something that was hard for me to figure out with scenes was how to end them in something that felt like an ending, if that makes sense. Did you ever feel that, like with breadcrumbing, that's really cool because it signifies, Hey, this is the thing that we've climbed this hill for. Here we go. With rope, it's also easy because I understand what hurts in rope, we can get to a really painful position then we're gonna come down. Was that always intuitive with the structure of kind of ending things?

[00:34:54] Mistress Gemma Li No, no, I think that took a lot of practice as well. Let me go back. So when you asked about, you know, having this list and going through it, I think that was very helpful in the beginning, right? When I was learning and seeing more variety of submissives and understanding also what I enjoyed. What did I truly want as a professional (…), or now having more people serving me? Like, how did I want to do that? How did I want to be served? What are my preferences? What are my predilections? And as I developped that, it is more intuitive. You know, the more you practice, the better it gets. I think there is also a part of me that has come to the point where... I want to enjoy myself, so I'm not going to push someone to... You know, off the cliff. But also if then if we don't have that chemistry, that's fine. That's fine.

[00:36:05] Wicked Wren That's really powerful.

[00:36:07] Mistress Gemma Li You know, it's it's creating the world you want as well. And it doesn't mean they're a bad submissive. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm a bad dominant. We just might not be right for each other. It's very – I, I tell new submissives all the time. It's like dating. And even more so it's like first time (…). It may be a little nerve wracking, you know, we... There might be moments of awkwardness or pause as we're learning each other, but if the chemistry is there, then generally (…) gets better over time.

[00:36:47] Wicked Wren That's really cool. Like, everyone you interact with doesn't have to be a ten out of ten match. I have a question and you do not have to answer this, but I'm curious. Did you have imposter syndrome when you started being a (…)?

[00:37:02] Mistress Gemma Li Absolutely.

[00:37:07] Wicked Wren Because talking to you now, it's hard for me to even envision someone that felt maybe like, I shouldn't do this, or maybe I don't have what it takes, or something like that. It's hard to even put that, like, associate that with you.

[00:37:29] Mistress Gemma Li Oh, okay. Imposter syndrome. Yes. And... I think it's, unless someone's a true narcissist. I don't think any person doesn't have some aspect of impostor syndrome or that nervousness or even excitement of treading new grounds and going into a space that is outside of their comfort zone. And so, I just looked at it as an opportunity to explore more, to live a fuller life. Giving... Leeway and forgiveness for mistakes and also apologizing or admitting to when you may have not done something right or as, or showing up as fully as you want to, wanted to show up. And for me, I always tell my closest friends or those that I keep as my closest friends. The reason why they are in that circle is because I trust that they will always be honest with me, and they will always call me out if they see me misstepping.

[00:39:01] Wicked Wren I think it's cool that you said the people that you have in your closest circle, you know are going to be honest with you.

[00:39:07] Mistress Gemma Li Definitely. As you said, you know, people have this projection of themselves as a (…) of, of like they've been doing it for a while or, you know, they know everything they're doing, and we have our branding, whether that's in lifestyle or professionally. A good reminder for me was that we're all human. We face very similar challenges, maybe in different ways, and that's expressed differently. And also it's social media. It's the internet. People present the best version of themselves. And I do find that there are some (…) that just live in the fantasy of it.

[00:40:02] Wicked Wren That makes total sense. Well, I was actually going to ask to kind of wrap this up. How do you feel about social media? Is it difficult to show... I don't want to say the right version of yourself, but.... Is it, is it stressful? Like how do you feel about it? Do you feel like it adds?

[00:40:20] Mistress Gemma Li I abhor it. I am not... Really on it personally at all. The only reason why I'm on it personally is to keep up with my friends. I find that I don't know about a lot of events happening unless a friend tells me and they're like, Oh, did you go on Facebook? Did you check it out? And I'm like, Oh yeah, I guess I did get that invite. Great. It is great in terms of getting exposure. For business, at least for me. I find that it is a necessary evil in what I do. Do I prefer it? Absolutely not. If I could just do sessions and meet people in person, without any of that, I would be super, super happy.

[00:41:17] Wicked Wren Yes. I hate it. It's so stressful to me.

[00:41:22] Mistress Gemma Li Yeah, although I do appreciate... The amount of information and education I am able to receive from it and the rate at which we do. So perhaps we're doing God's work.

[00:41:41] Wicked Wren Where can people find you? What do you have coming up that you're excited about, etc., etc.?

[00:41:48] Mistress Gemma Li Yes. So I am on social media, Instagram and Twitter @MistressGemmaLi. My website is mistressgemmali.com.


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