EP 07

EP 07

In this episode, Cam Damage and Wren chat about personal journeys and rope journeys, where they intersect and where they diverge.

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Guest Bio

Cam Damage is a trans-masculine non-binary actor, director, kinky content creator and self-proclaimed "agony enthusiast".


Wicked Wren [00:00:17] Welcome to the Shibari Study podcast. I'm your host, Wicked Wren. In this episode, I chat with my friend Cam Damage. Cam is a director, a performer, and an editor. He has his own podcast. He's amazing. He's one of my best friends.

Cam Damage [00:00:32] I sound so prolific and, you know, thank you so much.

Wicked Wren [00:00:37] You're so welcome. That's what I do, you know. I make everyone look good.

Cam Damage [00:00:41] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:00:41] You are a general agony enjoyer.

Cam Damage [00:00:45] Yeah. It used to be in my Instagram info back in the day. It was agony enthusiast.

Wicked Wren [00:00:50] I know. I love that. And also a Russ Cole fan club.

Cam Damage [00:00:54] Yep. I may need to bring back the agony enthusiast. It was a great one.

Wicked Wren [00:00:57] Yeah, I really like that one. I liked it so much I used it for your intro just now.

Cam Damage [00:01:01] Yeah, that was really good of you.

Wicked Wren [00:01:02] So you kind of love everything, honestly. And ropes on are your favorite pieces of pain, if you will?

Cam Damage [00:01:11] Oh, I love – I was like, love everything in life or –

Wicked Wren [00:01:14] No, there's a lot of life you don't enjoy.

Cam Damage [00:01:17] Yeah. In terms of in the agony –.

Wicked Wren [00:01:19] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:01:20] And ecstasy fields.

Wicked Wren [00:01:21] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:01:22] Yes. Got you.

Wicked Wren [00:01:23] You've been into rope for a while and you started on the East Coast, right?

Cam Damage [00:01:27] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:01:28] Yes and then you recently moved over to the West Coast.

Cam Damage [00:01:30] Yeah, well, technically, I started in the Midwest, if we're really splitting rope hairs here.

Wicked Wren [00:01:40] And you talked about you figured out rope on your own, and then you found a scene.

Cam Damage [00:01:47] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:01:48] That you joined. What were the big differences and like, why did you find a scene? Why did you think it was important to do that?

Cam Damage [00:01:54] I was shown rope initially by a partner. Like a now ex-partner. And just was like tied a few times and was like, Oh, this is really cool. And then started self-tying and I didn't even know that scenes existed really.

Wicked Wren [00:02:14] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:02:15] I wasn't introduced to it in a way that was like, Oh, and then we go to this party or, Oh, these things exist and we go to them or any of that. I just thought it was a lot of people at home or whatever. Like just tying and that a lot of people were like me that were just like, Well, I'm just tying myself up. Like sitting around in the evening.

Wicked Wren [00:02:35] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:02:37] But then circumstances unfolded that I moved to Baltimore, which at the time was like the rope hub.

Wicked Wren [00:02:49] There's a lot going on.

Cam Damage [00:02:50] Yeah. For like many reasons. And I already had – I don't even remember the original question, but I'm going to keep talking.

Wicked Wren [00:02:59] Keep going. You're doing so good.

Cam Damage [00:03:01] I had acquaintances there already via the internet. Can I shout out scene names?

Wicked Wren [00:03:07] Yeah, please.

Cam Damage [00:03:08] Shout out to EbiBex and DWL, who are amazing people.

Wicked Wren [00:03:12] Big up.

Cam Damage [00:03:13] Big ups. If you ever have the chance to take one of the classes, you should do it. Anyway, so I moved to Baltimore and they took me under their group wings and introduced me to the scene. And what I feel like was a very awesome, positive and productive way.

Wicked Wren [00:03:29] I thought that you were going to do like a shrimp flaps with Ebi.

Cam Damage [00:03:32] Shrimp flaps.

Wicked Wren [00:03:34] I was like, she took me under shrimp flaps.

Cam Damage [00:03:36] That sounds negative.

Wicked Wren [00:03:38] Well, a lot of people would be –

Cam Damage [00:03:42] Not, not thrilled about that.

Wicked Wren [00:03:44] Not thrilled about that.

Cam Damage [00:03:45] Anyway, so they opened me up to the entire – there is a scene. There's these play parties that happen and they're, like, heavily roped-based. There's so much more to it than what people think would be a play party thing or whatever. Even though I had no idea what they were even.

Wicked Wren [00:04:00] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:04:00] To begin with.

Cam Damage [00:04:01] So when you're being tied by your ex-partner in the beginning, it was just kind of like, This is what we're going to do and if you don't like it, you really don't have an agency to say like, Hey, I don't really like this thing because you hardly know what's going on.

Cam Damage [00:04:13] Well when you put it that way... I – although that relationship ended negatively, I wouldn't put it like that. I didn't, I knew...

Wicked Wren [00:04:25] Was it because there wasn't that structure of people doing rope around you?

Cam Damage [00:04:30] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:04:30] Okay, that makes sense.

Cam Damage [00:04:31] And I didn't have any other like, I didn't have safety knowledge. I didn't have anything else like that. Yeah, it was just what she was telling me, like, whatever. And I trusted her, so it was fine and I never got, like, injured or anything. So I was like, It's good, but I don't want to – we're not going to go too into that.

Wicked Wren [00:04:50] When did you start to learn to tie?

Cam Damage [00:04:52] So like pretty much immediately after that partner like started to tie me. It was before we were partners. She came on a trip to do photoshoots with me and tied me for one or two maybe, and then left me with some pieces of rope. And I was like sick.

Wicked Wren [00:05:13] Sweet.

Cam Damage [00:05:13] Let's do it.

Wicked Wren [00:05:15] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:05:15] And then that started the obsession of – I self-tied like every day for like years.

Wicked Wren [00:05:20] That was my next question.

Cam Damage [00:05:21] Yeah, yeah, that's that – I started with, you know, the Karada body harness thingy that everyone does. Yeah, the whatever diamonds. But then, like, learned, like simple futomomo and little silly chest harnesses and whatever, and just a bunch of, like, learning tension and stuff on the ground. All the way to the point of like self-suspending before tying other people really at all.

Wicked Wren [00:05:48] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:05:48] I did a little bit with Brad, but I was really not confident to tie other people ever.

Wicked Wren [00:05:53] Absolutely. I had KissMeDeadlyDoll on.

Cam Damage [00:05:56] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:05:56] And she's also a big self-suspender. And I asked her how she replicates the agony that someone else can put you into yourself if that makes sense?

Cam Damage [00:06:08] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:06:09] How do you do that?

Cam Damage [00:06:11] I think it's like, it's like not really comparable to me. The way that you feel rope when someone else is tying you versus when you're tying yourself. Because when you're self-suspending especially, it's... you're only getting to a moment. Like it's all, it's working really hard generally to get to one moment when you get to like lay into it and be like, Oh, oh, holy (…), like I'm gassed and then play into it and be like, Oh, here's like the hurting part that like, makes me feel good and whatever. But then you have to get your (…) back up.

Wicked Wren [00:06:47] Yeah and get out.

Cam Damage [00:06:49] And to like do a different position or get out of it. Whereas when someone else is tying you, you can just not worry about any of it and just be in the, in the like feeling of rope the whole time. And so it's much more sporadic in self-tying where you're like, Oh oh.

Wicked Wren [00:07:06] Then you met DWL and EbiBex and then started getting tied by other people and tying other people and things like that more.

Cam Damage [00:07:13] Yes, it's still not that much tying other people until like the last year or two, but getting tied by other people. Like for sure. I think that they took me to my first play party ever in Baltimore and I got tied by like two or three different people that night maybe like, yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:07:30] That's something about Covid that messes it up. I miss those little play parties. They're really fun.

Cam Damage [00:07:36] They, I did have... They were a really good thing at the point in time when I had them in my life.

Wicked Wren [00:07:41] Same. They're really good for that period.

Cam Damage [00:07:43] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:07:44] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:07:44] Same with like cons and stuff.

Wicked Wren [00:07:46] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:07:47] But I wouldn't, I, I could maybe go to a party now still, but I don't think I would want to go to a rope con ever again.

Wicked Wren [00:07:54] I think a lot of the stuff that I didn't like about rope cons is that it's you kind of go in the rope room and just jerk off in front of everyone. You know and you just kind of show them how amazing you are and whatever. Obviously, there's exceptions to that but it felt like that was kind of what was happening for like me at least. And I was like, this isn't... This is self-serving.

Cam Damage [00:08:17] I felt very inauthentic when I got to the level of teaching. I was like, Who am I to...

Wicked Wren [00:08:24] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:08:25] Why? Why am I doing this? And like, what is... Why am I in this position even? Like, I just want to go tie at home, like –

Wicked Wren [00:08:30] Yeah, exactly.

Cam Damage [00:08:31] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:08:32] We talked about something that is wild and is how much rope has taken over parts of our lives during those periods. Like you didn't want to cut your hair forever because you wanted to be able to do hair rope.

Cam Damage [00:08:44] Yep.

Wicked Wren [00:08:44] And then both of us getting tattooed. We, I would put those plans on hold.

Cam Damage [00:08:48] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:08:48] I put massive surgeries on hold for rope.

Cam Damage [00:08:53] Yep.

Wicked Wren [00:08:53] These crazy things. It's just wild how that can take over...

Cam Damage [00:08:59] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:08:59] Your life.

Cam Damage [00:09:00] Literally, I, I've said this to you before, and I've said it online. I've, I've, I halted transitioning essentially.

Wicked Wren [00:09:06] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:09:07] Because of rope. Because I like wouldn't cut my hair. I wouldn't even think about getting top surgery because that meant I couldn't be in a TK for however long. Like the hair was honestly one of the biggest ones, because the hair is what started my whole, like, physical trans journey.

Wicked Wren [00:09:23] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:09:24] And I thought in rope bottoming, like, well, you have to have long hair. You have to do hair rope.

Wicked Wren [00:09:30] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:09:30] You have to look beautiful in these shapes. And that means having that and like, there's no other way about it, which of course, is not true. And we all know that's not true. But as these things we internalize in terms of being a rope bottom and having to fit into certain boxes and being like unworthy or not beautiful if you're not like... Like, honestly, like small, thin girls.

Wicked Wren [00:09:53] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:09:53] It is what it is.

Wicked Wren [00:09:55] So I was recently in a class and the instructor was tying a guy and his arms didn't come together in a strappado and the instructor was like, This is a very difficult bottom to tie. I think that's such a bad way of looking at it because the default is tying thin, flexible women.

Cam Damage [00:10:22] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:10:23] And when you don't fit that mold, you're difficult.

Cam Damage [00:10:27] And how many people do?

Wicked Wren [00:10:28] That's the thing, is that they don't.

Cam Damage [00:10:31] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:10:32] Fuoco was on recently.

Cam Damage [00:10:34] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:10:34] This is just me talking about all the past podcasts I've done with you.

Wicked Wren [00:10:37] Well, that's fine.

Wicked Wren [00:10:39] But she said that harnesses are taught to riggers in order to give the most success. And I think that's wild because that's honestly what it is, It has nothing to do with the rope bottoms.

Cam Damage [00:10:51] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:10:51] And she said, she hopes that there's a point in time where we look at the arms and say, If the arms do this, this is how they should be tied.

Cam Damage [00:10:59] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:10:59] Which is amazing.

Cam Damage [00:11:00] And this is how I can alter a thing to a different body shape because there is no...

Wicked Wren [00:11:06] That's the thing.

Cam Damage [00:11:06] Sample size. Like, there... yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:11:08] Yeah. And when I got into doing rope, I had a lot of issues with TKs. I still do. Strappados are miserable for me. There's a bunch of stuff that sucks for me.

Cam Damage [00:11:18] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:11:19] And I always had my metric of success on if I could sustain it, ...

Cam Damage [00:11:24] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:11:25] And that's not what it is.

Cam Damage [00:11:26] No, it shouldn't, it shouldn't be.

Wicked Wren [00:11:28] No, not at all.

Cam Damage [00:11:29] I mean, it's not supposed to be... If you're doing rope, the odds are you enjoy pain. And certainly, there are ways to do rope where it is not pain-focused. But I think for the most part, that's why a lot of us do it. Our endurance pain or whatever type of pain. But there's a difference between getting your arms thrown into a strappado as tight as possible and your fingers going numb before you even get off the ground.

Wicked Wren [00:11:53] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:11:54] Pain. And I'm actually suffering in a thing that I... Is meant to and not harmful to my body necessarily.

Wicked Wren [00:12:02] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:12:03] And that's a lot of it is really harmful to your bodies and the things that we're doing. I think because of how... I don't mean to put the onus on riggers because... But like it is a lot of like riggers who lose sight of the fact that bottoms are people.

Wicked Wren [00:12:20] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:12:20] With, like, different bodies and capabilities and things like that.

Wicked Wren [00:12:24] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:12:24] I don't know.

Wicked Wren [00:12:25] Yeah. And we're not just people that... are rope receptacles.

Cam Damage [00:12:30] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:12:30] You know.

Cam Damage [00:12:30] Models, quote unquote.

Wicked Wren [00:12:31] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:12:32] I hate that term.

Wicked Wren [00:12:33] That's always been goofy to me. You know, I like even less rope bunny.

Cam Damage [00:12:37] Yeah, I agree.

Wicked Wren [00:12:38] I don't love it.

Cam Damage [00:12:39] Some people really like it so I'm like you do you.

Wicked Wren [00:12:41] I just...Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:12:42] I don't know. I don't know.

Wicked Wren [00:12:43] Yeah, I just feel like it has a little bit of, like, this, like, infantilisation too it.

Cam Damage [00:12:47] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:12:47] Right?

Cam Damage [00:12:48] It does. It feels like it takes agency away from you, even just by saying the name.

Wicked Wren [00:12:52] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:12:53] And you're like, Ooh.

Wicked Wren [00:12:54] It's like you're a rope topper rigger.

Cam Damage [00:12:56] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:12:56] And I'm a bunny.

Cam Damage [00:12:58] I'm just here to be caught. Caught and strung up.

Wicked Wren [00:13:01] Catch me.

Cam Damage [00:13:02] Well, that's when you get into primal prey territory, you know?

Wicked Wren [00:13:05] Oh, my God. Well, this is the Shibari Study podcast. It's not the primalparade.com.

Cam Damage [00:13:09] It's not the (…) test podcast.

Wicked Wren [00:13:13] I am 100% rope top.

Cam Damage [00:13:15] 100% submissive.

Wicked Wren [00:13:17] Yes. So with education and learning, have you seen online education change in rope and has online education helped you?

Cam Damage [00:13:28] I feel like it has changed since I started just because it wasn't impossible to find education stuff online when I was like first starting to tie. But the sites weren't the most, like, approachable. Yeah, like consumable. However, you want to word it. And it wasn't always the type of rope that you'd want to do. Like it, like it wasn't like Japanese-style shibari or whatever. It would be like very ornamental. Decorative.

Wicked Wren [00:13:58] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:13:59] Like whatever type of people. And I don't need to know how to tie a pentagram chest harness.

Wicked Wren [00:14:04] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:14:04] Like, I don't know. It's cute. Whatever. But... And I know there's other ones besides Shibari Study that existed before, but, I mean, I'm not trying to, like, blow smoke up Shibari Study that's here. But they were like one, they were one of the ones that were like, Damn, they really, like, nailed this online education thing.

Wicked Wren [00:14:21] And to be clear, this is the place to blow smoke up their house. Yeah, they're paying for this.

Cam Damage [00:14:25] So it's good.

Wicked Wren [00:14:26] So you should.

Cam Damage [00:14:27] No, but it's true, though. I don't know. Do you have another...

Wicked Wren [00:14:32] One of those like shooting from different angles, like showcasing things. Like, I learned all the fundamentals from Shibari Study, essentially.

Cam Damage [00:14:39] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:14:39] It's amazing.

Cam Damage [00:14:40] And how they put, how they stress safety.

Wicked Wren [00:14:42] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:14:42] The models and riggers that are all different genders. Body types. Not just white people. That's cool. We love that.

Wicked Wren [00:14:53] Yeah, we love to see it.

Cam Damage [00:14:55] They're very diverse, which is awesome. And it doesn't feel like it's like pandering or tokenizing. It's just (…) people doing rope of all different like types.

Wicked Wren [00:15:03] The thing that I like about it is I think it's supplements real impersonal education.

Cam Damage [00:15:08] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:15:08] Because if you go in and you're just trying to keep up with learning the pattern of a TK in a class or something like that, which I think is a bit of a problem in teaching in general. But if you learn the basics and know a TK from Shibari Study or you know, some of the different, you know, how to tie different single-column other than just a Somerville or something.

Cam Damage [00:15:31] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:15:33] That's really helpful and empowers you to go into a class and learn more.

Cam Damage [00:15:37] Yeah. I do think that it's hard because it's not the most accessible, quote unquote hobby to do, but it is something that needs to be learned both in person and like in person where the teacher's in person and you practice on your own as well. So like, I would never like I personally wouldn't say that someone should learn suspension just off of online videos. That feels sketchy to me. That's my risk profile. I'm sure there's people that do, and it's totally fine.

Wicked Wren [00:16:08] Yeah, well, I don't look at it as a thing where you're only learning how to suspend someone from online video. I look at it as you are listening to people that know what they're talking about. You're maybe doing it with a backpack on a hard point in your house.

Cam Damage [00:16:26] That's what we would hope.

Wicked Wren [00:16:27] Yeah, and then...

Cam Damage [00:16:28] Yes, absolutely. That sounds great.

Wicked Wren [00:16:29] And then you're going out and getting in-person instruction.

Cam Damage [00:16:31] Yes. Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:16:32] Like that. That is what you hope.

Cam Damage [00:16:35] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:16:36] But being very eager in the beginning, it's difficult to not do that.

Cam Damage [00:16:41] I know. For me in the beginning when I first started suspending people. Poor Brad, for one thing. But I had a friend, Sardonic, who was one of the first people to tie to me in Baltimore also. And he's awesome. Look at pictures that I posted on like Tumblr or something of me quote unquote suspending Brad and he was like, Hey, I'd love to show you some things. And he was like So nice.

Wicked Wren [00:17:06] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:17:07] And was basically like, You're going to hurt someone. Here's how you really do this.

Wicked Wren [00:17:11] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:17:11] And like, taught me stuff and that I like, I'm so grateful to this day that he felt that he could interject in my little wrapped up in, like, excited about rope world.

Wicked Wren [00:17:22] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:17:23] Because who (…) knows what I would have done, like, about bad habits I would have, like, gone with if he hadn't been like, Hey, actually.

Wicked Wren [00:17:29] Yeah. Yeah, I was really lucky to have people be like, This is how you do something.

Cam Damage [00:17:35] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:17:35] You know, And I totally did things I shouldn't have done. And I look back at those times and like, I cannot believe brought for myself and someone else in that situation.

Cam Damage [00:17:44] Or that I bottomed for things where I trusted that person and look at those pictures and I'm like, Holy hell, huff!

Wicked Wren [00:17:51] Yeah, well, I want to talk about gender and rope. You took a break from rope for a bit?

Cam Damage [00:17:58] Yes.

Wicked Wren [00:17:59] And have you come back after you've started transitioning?

Cam Damage [00:18:03] And I think it's hard to say if it was like taking a break or reevaluating. My guess it was just whatever. It's definitely a step back to reevaluate what I was doing with rope and what I wanted from it. And now I am coming back to it but very selectively, I would say. Because I feel like before I stopped doing rope for myself. Like I was doing rope to get... Not always. There were some people I tied with that it was like genuine fun. Like this is how we express ourselves to each other and like, whatever. I'm like KissMeDeadlyDoll. Anyway.

Wicked Wren [00:18:48] Just KissMeDeadlyDoll?

Cam Damage [00:18:48] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:18:48] Yeah

Cam Damage [00:18:50] Anyway. Yeah, truly.

Wicked Wren [00:18:53] Lief too.

Cam Damage [00:18:54] She's not, she's not the only one. I would love to have Lief also. Anyway.

Wicked Wren [00:18:56] I can set it up.

Cam Damage [00:18:58] Yeah, you know.

Wicked Wren [00:18:58] I know.

Cam Damage [00:19:00] You know they?

Wicked Wren [00:19:01] I know they.

Cam Damage [00:19:06] But going back to that, I wasn't, I was doing rope for, like, uh, pretty pictures on Instagram. How, how terrible of a position can I get myself in and survive it. I was wanting to tie with people that were like, not like trading cards, but being like, Oh, it's a dream to tie with this person or this and that and like, what's the next con I'm going to and what's the next rope event? And it was just like taking over my life in a way where I didn't... It wasn't healthy. And I was also physically injuring myself and have. I still have injuries from it. Um, and then transitioning kind of made me realize like, oh, I was not, I was not... My life was like in limbo because I was paying so much attention to rope and I wasn't doing things that I really wanted to do with, like other parts of my life.

Wicked Wren [00:19:59] Yeah, that makes total sense.

Cam Damage [00:20:01] Yeah. So it's been... What has it been like two years?

Wicked Wren [00:20:04] It's been like two years.

Cam Damage [00:20:05] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:20:07] Something that I haven't been able to replace because I've also taken a little break from rope is that feeling of, I survived this.

Cam Damage [00:20:16] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:20:16] I climb the mountain. Now I get the treat because they were both very much... People that want to do the activity suffer and then get the reward afterwards.

Cam Damage [00:20:26] Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:20:27] And it's hard to replicate that.

Cam Damage [00:20:29] Yes, I honestly can't. I... It's... Other (…) don't compare in the same way to...

Wicked Wren [00:20:36] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:20:37] To the feeling that rope is which sucks because I do like other (…) things. Like I love doing impact.

Wicked Wren [00:20:43] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:20:44] But there's, it's, there's something so only rope about the, like journey through it.

Wicked Wren [00:20:50] Yes.

Cam Damage [00:20:50] And the like intense prolonged suffering and then coming down whatever and the feeling after and the adds not... I don't know it's, that's like the one big bummer for me is I do miss that (…).

Wicked Wren [00:21:04] Yeah. I can't get it from like a hike.

Cam Damage [00:21:05] Yeah. No

Wicked Wren [00:21:07] I've tried.

Cam Damage [00:21:08] Different bummer there. But also it's, it's accepting that I'll still get to do those things. It'll just be much less in number because I'm so selective about who I want to do it with now.

Wicked Wren [00:21:20] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:21:21] And I won't be harming my body and covered in like, rope scars.

Wicked Wren [00:21:27] Yeah.

Cam Damage [00:21:28] Anymore. So, like, there's, like give and take with it, in my opinion, I don't know.

Wicked Wren [00:21:32] So what's next for you? What do you got going on? Tell me about the things you got going on. Don't laugh at me. What do you got going on?

Cam Damage [00:21:38] You know, I'm got this new podcast called The Corn Corner.

Wicked Wren [00:21:43] Nice.

Cam Damage [00:21:43] Pretty great. Not a lot of rope-based stuff going on there, but there is silk on corn ears. And I think if someone tried hard enough, they could...

Wicked Wren [00:21:54] They could...

Cam Damage [00:21:54] You know, make a little husk rope possibly or something like that.

Wicked Wren [00:22:00] I understand.

Cam Damage [00:22:00] (…)-wise, I'm going to Folsom this weekend.

Wicked Wren [00:22:02] Nice.

Cam Damage [00:22:02] Maybe do some rope there.

Wicked Wren [00:22:03] Nice.

Cam Damage [00:22:04] Definitely do some other (…) things. I don't know. I don't think that far ahead in life.

Wicked Wren [00:22:09] Yeah, you really are kind of in the moment.

Cam Damage [00:22:10] Yeah. We're month to month here.

Wicked Wren [00:22:12] You're a, you have a lot of plates spinning, and then every day you just wake up and keep them spinning.

Cam Damage [00:22:17] Yep. I'm tired.

Wicked Wren [00:22:18] Well, you did get some sleep pills recently.

Cam Damage [00:22:22] I slept last night more than I haven't in, like, weeks.

Cam Damage [00:22:25] That's amazing.

Cam Damage [00:22:26] It was great.

Wicked Wren [00:22:27] This is losing context for our viewers by last night, we just got back from the airport. We had a sleepover situation.

Cam Damage [00:22:33] Yeah, Yeah.

Wicked Wren [00:22:33] Actually, I slept super hard, too.

Cam Damage [00:22:35] Yeah, it was great.

Wicked Wren [00:22:36] This is a great podcast.

Cam Damage [00:22:37] Yeah. Slept on a mattress on the floor is good. Actually, I love it. I really love it. Anyway.

Wicked Wren [00:22:43] Anyway, well, thank you so much for being on the Shibari Study podcast, and I look forward to having you on the Shibari Study podcast again.

Cam Damage [00:22:53] So, so likewise.

Wicked Wren [00:22:56] Bye bye.

Cam Damage [00:22:56] Bye.